A Former Spy Chief on How AI Really Manipulates You

Anthony Vinci — the first CTO of the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency and a member of the team behind Project Maven — joins me to talk about how AI and China are rewriting the rules of espionage.

We get into why the most powerful manipulation isn't lies but facts, how "LLM grooming" poisons the AI you rely on, the shift from being in the loop to on the loop, and why Vinci argues every citizen now needs to think like an intelligence officer. Plus his company Vico, which forecasts geopolitical and economic events to help people make better decisions.

Anthony's book, The Fourth Intelligence Revolution, is a Financial Times best book of the year — well worth a read: Get the book

Also referenced: Zero Day Clock · Vico · Anthony Vinci

0:00 — The best way to manipulate you is with facts

0:32 — Welcome & who is Anthony Vinci

1:20 — Why he wrote The Fourth Intelligence Revolution

3:51 — Why espionage is now in your living room

5:31 — 2016, Facebook, and hacking an election

9:00 — AI vs. Facebook: targeting you as an individual

9:40 — LLM grooming and the Pravda network

10:34 — Disinformation vs. misinformation

13:02 — Why AI manipulation is subtle

14:57 — We've been lying to each other forever

16:20 — Training everyone to think like a spy

18:51 — The cybersecurity parallel

22:41 — RSA, agentic attacks, and AI in security

24:57 — Mythos, zero-days, and weaponized exploits

30:00 — Should powerful models be released in stages?

32:20 — When one person has more power than a nation

36:54 — The morality question for AI founders

39:11 — Surveillance vs. thought control

40:34 — Could we ever elect an AI president?

41:16 — In the loop vs. on the loop

44:22 — Why competitive pressure removes humans from the loop

45:39 — What Vico does

48:39 — Intelligence as war prevention

51:14 — Where to find Anthony & Vico

Guest: Anthony Vinci, Co-founder & CEO, Vico — anthonyvinci.com